>> good morning from new york. i'm chris hayes. the alleged master mind behind 9/11 will be arraigned today. some 9/11 families will watch on closed circuit tv. the american public alarge will not be able to review the proceedings. president barack obama holds the first election campaign today. right now, i am joined by columnist for the new york daily news, columbia university professor of linguistics. michelle goldberg, author of the book, the means of reproduction. sex, power and future of the world. play wright and author in of the new book, "the republican brain." great to have you here, chris. on wednesday, the romney

campaign's foreign spokesman resigned after an uproar over his sexual orientation. he is openly gay and despite his open affiliation, has been a vocal advocate for marriage equality. after he was hired, brian fischer wrote this about romney on twitter. if personnel is policy, his message to the profamily community, drop dead. after that, he was asked to lay low during a foreign policy conference call that he, himself organized. that preacheded him to quit. >> he did decide for his own reasons that his effectiveness was going to be compromised. >> is this having to do with the fact that some social conserve tives appeared to be publicly going after him? >> well, i don't want to speak for rick, but i will say of

course there were voices of intolerance that expressed themselves during this debate. that was unfortunate. >> his job, just because he was gay, would have been the most extreme thing to happen if it weren't for the amendment one 234 north carolina. amendment one that goes before voters this tuesday may be the most underreported political story in america right now. taken with the controversy, it showcases a disturbing trend over antigay forces. every state in the south has a constitutional amendment restricting marriage to heterosexual couples. but amendment one would go further. it would make marriage between one man and one woman the only domestic legal union that shall be valid or recognized in this state. that would not only ban same sex marriage, but also civil unions. and the amendment could threaten

certain legal protections. fact once people know what the proposal actually does, it would ban any domestic union other than a man and a woman. so what i found fascinating about these two cases is i think there's a little bit -- and i think rightfully triumphalism in folks that are pushing for equality, because the polling really encouraging. and sort of remarkable. nothing else seems to change in as rapid a fashion. if you spend your time thinking about politics, in particularly progressive politics, i don't think there's a single other issue where it feels like the wind is at your back in the same way that the fight for equality on this score does. and, yet, the firing seemed a massive step back, i thought. i thought that we had all agreed that in public life, you could

be openly gay and not just be fired for it, although, of course, legally you can still be fired for being gay. and then, amendment one in north carolina, which the polling looks like, as it currently stands, is likely to pass. i wonder if anyone feels like we've gotten out ahead. this is a useful reminder of how the prejudices are. >> if a drunken man is about to fall into the gutter, than we can be assured he'll do some lurches away from the gutteder. i think that's what this is. but when automobiles came in, there were horse and buggy clubs. that didn't mean that cars were having a problem and that horse and buggies were going to stay in. so i think because of the

inhere inherent conserve tichl, we're going to see reverses of this kind. but certainly, my classes are at clam bebee yeah and i have students casually talking about the fact that they're gay. it's great. never would have happened six or ssfp years ago. that's just one part of society, but i think where we're going is clear. there will be these spikes and random backward sort tis of things. i am at least not that worried about them. i feel like this is my perennial theme. the republican party has moved significantly to the right from where it was even during the bush years. i can't imagine something like the granell thing happening. i think that mitt romney, some

having to do with the party and some having tho do with social conservatives, kind of more, in a lot of ways, has to be more responsive to the extreme forces in his party because he's so distrusted. and there was also a whole other con influence of things. it might not have happened has he not, as we were talking about before, made all of these sexist tweets at a time when mitt romney is kind of full out rage. >> and my dear friend and cleg who he had all sorts of totally neanderthalish tweets. >> that would actually seem like homophobic. >> what i think is interesting is one, we're in the ae area of self assassination for twitter. he was literally hosted by his own -- >> which is amazing because he's a communication expert. >> right. >> but i think this is part of the first of all, the modern media. and the fact that all of his

credentials, his references were checked. it's a role of particular modern american politics. the reality is both sides recognized is going to be an incredibly slow race. and thirdly, what is the most ironic, is that gradell was hired because of his credentials and has had to resign because of his sexuality. it's also shown that the romney camp, given how far right the rub publy can party is, did not think about his sexuality. >> i think they did. i mean, chris, i wanted to hear you. but i just want to enter this on the record qs which is brian fisher who acts behind this. he's the one who said the personnel is policy. obviously, i find the guys views pretty odious.

but let me get this straight. firgs first of all, he attends to court the lgbt community by throwing off the profamily community under the bus. then, when he gets backlash, he doesn't fire him. he just lets him out there to dry. and then alienating everyone. >> i wanted to say that this is not just about eh kalt. this is not just about science. they actually believe that same sex marriages are bad for children. the evidence doesn't support this at all. but it's one of those things about home ma sexuality, the idea that you can choose to be gay, which is not the case.

>> that's actually, don't you all think, i think that we're in this moment where there's an absolute war on the modern american family in all of these different ways. the idea that through legislation, you're trying to enshine one woman, one man. and the modern american family just looks very, very different. so with the assault on the voting rights, with the war against women and where we are now with the north carolina amendment, i feel like the republicans, first of all, because it's not a winning political strategy. i think there's a few things here. along all sorts of metrics, things are getting better from the perspective of people who like traditional family. divorce rates have gone down. teen pregnancy has gone down shockingly. it's a huge dins. so if you actually look at the data, it's not like -- if ewe look at the data and you combine it with a fairly standard,

normative sense of what the family should be, which is, you know, women shouldn't get preying nan when they're 15. divorce is bad for kids and family should stay together, things are looking up. i think when you said -- i don't think there's a contradiction but there hr these high divorce rates. divorce rates tend to be pretty high. it's certainly not under attack for gay marriage, but maybe for modern k579 lichl. if someone is coming along and say i'm going to explain to you why your own life feels insecure and why these primary relationship that is you've kochl to depend on have now become some tenuous, that's really powerful.

if things are really changing and there's a certain wind at our backs, then naturally, people are going to start crying louder. we can wait for that. we can aleutian know -- i would netted call it a war. those people are losing. we have to listen to their noise. >> this is the nature of left and right, when you think about it is that, you know, the next generation of conservatives are going to be fine. >> when you poll conservatives under 30. >> yes, conservativism is best defined as a position of change. once there's a new status quo, then you see that with. you've always got to drag some

people a little bit. but i think with this one, the win is definite. >> i would just agree. >> i was thinking the difference between if liberality of what people are going through in their actual lives versus, once again, the fact of being in an election year and what is becoming political severity gee in order to ascertain how can we navigate winning the presidential election. and between those two spaces, what romney's camp is willing to do becomes more and more extreme because it's not rooted in anything that has untag rio. >> you have two people running against each other who are fairly averse. ened a if someone comes before you and says should we cut this

guy loose? yes. cut him loose. you have much bigger battles to wage, right? i'm not talking from a moral per spective. i'm talking under a purely strategic per speblgtive. you start making these very, very crass calculations of interests and benefits and losses. i want to turn to someone who is in north carolina and who is doing amazing work organizing against amendment one and for equality throughout the entire south. we're going to talk to her right after this break. what happens when classroom teachers get the training... ...and support they need? schools flourish and students blossom. that's why programs like... ...the mickelson exxonmobil teachers academy... ...and astronaut sally ride's science academy are helping our educators improve student success in math and science. let's shoot for the stars. let's invest in our teachers and inspire our students.

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>> shout out to the recently ak mc of the beastie boys. we'll be give ying some verses as we go throughout the day here. i want to bring in the executive director of the campaign for southern equality. they've been doing incredible work through what they call a we do campaign throughout the entire south fighting for marriage eh walt and now faithing against mcneck's very extreme amendment one. reverend thank you so much. it's so good to have you on the program. >> good morning, chris. great to be with you. skbl first, i was talking foe a few people from north carolina yesterday and trying to get a sense of why now. it's interesting that north carolina is a hold out in that most of the states around it have state constitutional amendments. why is this being pushed now?

>> well, the answer to that really is about state politics. this amendment has actually been introduced every year since 2004 and ended up being killed in committee. and then the republicans gained control for the first time in over a century in north carolina and 4 was part of the agenda that they brought with them and had the votes to get it out of committee and obviously to pass it. gld will you tell me what it looks like on the ground there? the polling is a little difficult and a little unreliable. it does seem that there's a huge gap between what people support for it in the abstract and then their support for it once they fiend out just how extreme the provision is. in fact, it has even drawn condemnation from folks who work for "traditional marchage."

the amendment means knock neck could not now or ever devise any poll sick of same sex partners. that's methodty cold. if you don't care where wl they and their families permanently rely on their laws, it might be a cup of tea. but it's not our view. what do you make of this -- this condemnation from the folks working against marriage equality and other circumstances that this law is so extreme and do north carolina voters have a sense of just how extreme it is? >> well, you're exactly right. the landscape here is very charged and dynamic right now. the 30 other states that have looked at amendments like this, but in other ways, this is 2012

and it's a volatile, political moment. and a lot of leaders in the republican party have come out against amendment one which has been unexpected but i think speaks precisely to the polling you're alluding to. right now, polls show that we're 14 points down. the polls have been tightening in recent weeks. and the polls also show, as you said, that folks also said this would ban civil unions and partnerships. and there's a clear majority of folk who is actually oppose it. so obviously, we want folks to understand everything that's at stake. and i'm going to put in a plug for early voting. today is the last day. so after you watch the show, if you're in north carolina, please go out and vote against mendment one. but i think what we also see in that polling data is ha the tide is turning in north carolina.

but whatever happens on may 8th is that we will still be second class citizens on may 9thened that we still have work to do to achieve full equality. that's precisely why we're launching the next stage of the we do campaign on the morning of may 9th to send a very clear message that north carolina is our home. that lgbt families live literally in every town and county across our state. and want especially for children who have been hearing horribly moe ma phobic comments for months now, that there are people all across the country who are willing to stand up for their equality. >> i've been really struck with a video that you did and i wanted to show that tt after we take this quick break. [ female announcer ] aging may slow a dog down,

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>> so we've come today to put on record that we are married in massachusetts? >> are you a teacher? >> yes. >> okay. i want you to know that this office respects equality. however, i am not able to issue a marriage license to you. sk sk >> when carol went to north carolina and said i'm not allowed to issue you a marriage license. >> okay. all right. well, we know that you're doing your job. and we just hope that one day, you will be able to grant this kind of license to us and my family. >> i hope so.

>> we've been together for 25 years. we're in our mid 60s. can you tell us what steps we might take to become full and equal citizens under the law? before we die? can you help us with that? >> a really powerful video. we have reverend jasmine beach farara on the line. tell me about the we do campaign. the footage that we've just seen which have been running or helping to run in both north carolina or other states. well, the we do campaign involves couples requesting marriage licenses. the reason we do this is to put a human face on an issue that is

all too often debated in highly political terms. these are real people. people who are our neighbors, our friends, fobs who are our public servants. this is what it looks like when a discriminatory law is enforced. and the premise is obviously building on a very rich tradition of civil rights organizing in the south. about ordinary real people doing that because they feel like, as citize citizens, they deserve equal protection under the law that's being denied to them. and they feel moved and compelled to act.

>> we'll be beginning the third stage on the morning of may 9th. we'll be doing these actions in eight communities across north carolina. some of them will be town with fewer than 500 residents. we elite be using civil disobedience, which takes the form of a sit in when someone has refused a marriage license. >> this is michelle goldburg. on the one hand, these videos are obviously incredibly moving. but you are kind of conceding when the debate is about gay marriage when potentially, the more winnable argument is the fact that this is going to ban civil unions on a state where you already have a ban on gay marriage. this is a law to ban civil unions. that's the point of it.

that's the change from the stae stows quo. >> well, that's a great question. and there's really two separate issues here. the we do campaign is a growing campaign. what we're calling for is full federal equality. our analysis is that federal equality is the most efficient mechanism. particularly in southern states achieving equality in areas of employment, health care, and relationship recognition. now, obviously, when something like amendment one surfaces, we have to play defense. we have to do our best to hold the line and our partners and folks literally are working around the clock and at the same time, it's critical for us to be looking beyond what happens on may 8th and saying that this is an issue that our whole country

is messing with and we think ultimately will be resolved on the federal level and the south has a critical role to play. and that's the premise of the we do campaign. >> reverend, if you wouldn't mind sticking around, john has a question, i've got a few more questions. [ donovan ] i hit a wall. and i thought "i can't do this, it's just too hard." then there was a moment. when i decided to find a way to keep going. go for olympic gold and go to college too. [ male announcer ] every day we help students earn their bachelor's or master's degree for tomorrow's careers. this is your moment. let nothing stand in your way. devry university, proud to support the education of our u.s. olympic team.

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that's why only aviva rewards you with savings for getting a check-up. it's our wellness for life program, with online access to mayo clinic. see the difference at avivausa.com. ♪ >> all right works're back from north carolina. john, you had a question for her? >> reverend, i just wanted to know as a point of clarification, is this law being publicized or discussed in a way that seems deliberately crafted to distract from the fact that this is things about domestic unions, civil unions, and really going whole hog. is it just a matter of people needing to read wording that they might not get around to?

>> i think that there's a lot of confusion about the meaning of the actual amendment. it uses very vague language that hasn't been tested in the courts. so that's one issue. ootid issue, of course, is that both sides in this are framing the debate differently. so those who support it are making it look like an effort to define marriages between one man and one woman. the reality of how it happens and what we're saying in efforts to defeat it are there's potentially very far-reaching implications not just for lgbt families in terms of civil unions and domestic partnerships, but also for potentially unmarried heterosexual couples.

and i think as we see in the polling, there's a loyalty of confusion as to what this actually means. the opposition to amendment one is well over 50%. i wanted to ask you about how faith and race is playing how this is arguing on the ground playing into the black clergy and home ma phobic rhetoric? and can you just talk a bit about that? >> that's a great question. and we're seeing some very interesting and exciting things happen, i think, in a positive response to that, which is to say that, you know -- clearly uses a strategy that tries to divide the african american community and the lgbt community and they have push liched papers

that document what that strategy is. in north carolina, it's not working. one of the things that we're seeing that's really extraordinary is reverend barber has been incredibly vocal in his on suggest to amendment one has been touring the state to get that message out there. and he's joined by african american clergy from across faith's traditions. and i think we're seeing the discourse start to change. now, at the same time, i think efforts are being made for this to be a racially devicive issue. but i think there are some promising things happening that's actually the human reality of this. and that they transcend the device of human political involve hmm. this is a human issue about real people. it's a moral issue. for me, of course, as a person of faith, i's a faith issue.

i feel called by my faith to do work around this area. and i feel called by my faith to try to engage in a different way than the sort of devicive, partisan and pretty visit tree alic terms that we've seen. >> that's something that we're talking about a lot today. talking across the partisan divide. the possibility of persuasion. just quickly, what you is the approach that you find most effective that is very socially conservative and very religious. skbl well, i can talk personally, you know. i grew up as a gay kid in north carolina and the '80s and '90s. obviously, i live here as an out gay person. i love north carolina. and i love the south. this smei home. and i think what folk who is live in the south experience and know and it's kind of in the dna

of our state and our region, is an understanding that people do change and transform. in all directions. and in my own personal live, i've seen family members and who were raised with convictions that they thought were a stem. aeve seen them stay in relationships with lgbt folks and come to understand that you can reconcile, aich times in the south, we're talking abet in the christian tradition, you can reconcile. there's no inherent contradiction there. and what i find and what we see time and again and depen is that when peechl change their hearts and minds on this issue, it happens in their personal lives. and it happens in a long process and it happens in a relationship where people don't judge them in that process. unfortunately, that process doesn't necessarily coincide

with a time frame of a political campaign. so when we're operating with spang like amendment 1, we fact some real challenges. i think again, what that speaks to is that the tide is really turning on people's sentiment and if you were to characterize the majority, it would be that folks were conflicted. their faith teaches them one thing rickets and they know arne lgbt person and they're trying to figure out how to reconcile those things. in our work with the we do campaign, the position that we take is to always extend empathy towards those who were conflicted about our rights. and to try to start the conversation from a place of empathy than a place of mutual condemnation. and we're finding that folks are very, very responsive to that a approach because it helps to humanize both sides of the issue. >> i want to thank the reverend and executive director for

joining us this moshing. we'll have you wac. back. thanks so much. >> thank you. apreisz yet it. >> the reverend yeajust talked about empathy. are our political foes crazy? or are we all crazy? right after this. [ male announcer ] this is the at&t network. a living, breathing intelligence helping business, do more business. in here, opportunities are created and protected. gonna need more wool! demand is instantly recognized and securely acted on across the company. around the world. turning a new trend, into a global phenomenon. it's the at&t network -- securing a world of new opportunities. ♪ all at 150 calories or less, there's definitely a temptations for you. unless you're one of those people who doesn't like delicious stuff. temptations. it's the first jell-o that's just for adults.

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in 25th place. let's raise academic standards across the nation. let's get back to the head of the class. let's solve this. if our political institutions seem more dysfunctional than before, it's probably because they're more polarized than before. we're not just talking about our congress. even our voters at large, the broad center seems to be rapidly diminishing. one of the kinds that we're seeing now is if it makes it difficult if not impossible to relate to people. there are two books out now that try to parse this phenomenon.

we have the authors of both of those books here with us today. chris mooney, who as i mentioned before is the author of the republican brain. joining us is jonathan height and author of the righteous mind, why good people are divided. i think this is, in some ways, the most important single issue to figure out and discuss. i used to think that people's concerns about polarization were this bourgeois establishment and the vanguard of righteousness. i've now realized to get change on the scale, you just can't get it under the current conditionings of polar sufferings. you just can't get it. so the question is you have to solve that problem first, before

you soufflve the bigger problem. it's a really good read. what is the nature of the conservative brain that makes it december tinct. >> there's a tun of research showing that the average liberal is much more open to new specious experiences and trying out new things. that means tolerating ambiguity and it makes them psychologically connected. and that's because there's a personalitity dispotion that produces in people a way of approaching the world that is prior to their politics, but then ends up essentially forming their politics? >> yeah, and their politics probably feeds back who they are, as well. so it's always in both directions.

but partly, personality is genetic, we know that. the one place you share which is a profound research, reason is an expost to come up with reasons to justify things that we already arrive at viscerally. and i want to play this clip of glen beck. he's talking about these e-mails that turned climate gate which they said completely disproved the con sense suss. an he's explaining why this is so important. here it is. if your gut said wait a minute, this global warming thing, we think this is a scam. we told you this was going on without proof because we've listened to our goth. you'd never believe me.

but once again, here we are with yet another brand new reality. >> but what you both are saying, the research in sibs e science says we listen to our gut and then we go with reasons, right? >> george was saying and drew weston says the left tends to cling to this idea if you construct the vehicle in the right way it will go into people's brains and change their mind. chris is representing the current state of thinking. but the one point that i really want to make is that morality

bides people into teams. and then in there, the key thing that i warnt to produce here is we all do it around our sacred values. if we go back 20 years, i would have an easier time finding denial of science on the left than on the right. but you can't see it if you're on the left. in my own feel, in psychology, because the left really sacralizes, those are so scary that on the left, there's 30 or 40 years of more than ambivalence, denial of inheritability, iq. it's bizarre that the left acted so strongly. >> it's not bizarre. i wan

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do you know you have more nerve endings in yare gut than you have in your head? you can look it up. i know some of you are going to say i did look it up and that's not true. that's because you looked it up in a book. next time, look it up in your gut. >> steven giving us a brief gloss of the thesis here. let's talk about this point of contention. jonathan, you're saying, look. we all have moral -- we all sort of morally reason in the same way or we all end up in teams and then we reverse engineer reasons to believe in what our team predisposes us to believe and that cuts across left and right. you're saying no, there's something distinct right in in the american right that makes it distinctly an extremely hostile assignment.

so defend that. >> i i grew with him. there's experiments when you can get the left to be more biassed than the right. so i agree with that. never the less, i think there's something about the liberal psychology in its affiliation with the scientific community and its willingness to change its views over time such that you might have liberal biases and i think evolution is the great example. i'm a liberal. i think you can understand human beings outside of evolution. clearly, maybe three decades ago, i wouldn't have been comfortable feeling that way. but i missed all of that. and i'm all for it. and the left is all for it. and it's not just denial of little things, all right. these people think of the earth as less than 10,000 years alt. and they deny everything.

but there's also a change over time. certain kinds of eyed logical extremism grow more intense. what is the source of that? because things don't remain static, right? >> right. so i want to fully agree with chris that the psychology does predispose liberals more to be receptive to science because my own research has found that conservatives are better at group binding. so if you put them in a group versus group, the group is bound to circle around the wagonings. app think both of us are on the same page here that the psychology doesn't tell you exactly what's going to happen. it's just a starting point and you need to look at history.

so that looks really good for chris. and that's true. but here's one little knew answer on that. he said public opinion on science, europe and japan is different than the united states. there, scopetteism usually comes from the left. the reason may be that the issues in europe, such as genetically modified food and power tend to push liberals' buttons. >> but i think you can easily wade into a relativism where everybody's equal. and the fact is, obviously you're right. i think that was true in the u.s. in the '70s where you had an antiempirical strain on if left and feminist community. but, however, i think there's a big difference between being scopette hcl of nuclear power although that is sleuthedly less rational. that's really different than denying an empirical fact, like evolution or like the earth being longer than 10,000.

i think that there is, but you don't think that there are are rational and kind of empirical reasons to be skeptical or worried about new collar power? to me, that's very different than a clear reality in the way that the age of the earth is -- you know, it doesn't travel all the way across the ocean and kill people on the west coast. there's also a huge institutional mode here. nay're all pro-nuclear power. all of the pefr. so there's a kind of malleability there. and i want to talk about how we -- how do we -- if you guys

are right, how do we avoid a bleak landscape in which no one can persuade anyone of anything and i come to work every day hoping to, like, you know, bring some information in the public and i completely banked my head against the wall and say my life is meaningless. they will rescue me from that right after this break. blarng blank.

>> good morning from new york. i'm chris haze here with columbia linguistics professor of the new york daily news. michelle goldberg from news week. jonathan hothead and author of the righteous mind. why good people are divided. and chris mooney, author of the republican brain the science and why they deny science and reality. we're talking about the ways in which people do their plight cal and eyed logical reasoning is the common topic here.

>> liberals appears to be in certain personality traits are highly coraltive. >> moderately correlated with certain eye dee logical dispositions. and then how though eh glom rate to a political ageneral can. da. the key insight from which both books spring is the fact that we don't reason in the enlightenment molt mode of i throw out a reason, you throw out a reason. no. those intuitions are formed by all sorts of things. berne bernellty, relationships, our cultural embeddedness. once we do we say this is sacred or this is important, i like equality, then we use our

reasons to come up with things that our intuition tells us. if that is the landscape warix does that do? and i'm going to ask a big question that we're probably not going to resolve on cable news. if the fact of the matter is we're all fooling ourselves about this whole thing, well, i'm fooling myself when i come on television and try foe persuade people about certain things. what are we divining doing? >> we could use the new institution of science from 1770. we could use it to do social policy better. in that sense, i'm in the enlightenment. and i think this new work is part of the enlightenment project. what it says, paradoxically, is if you think reason, individual reason, is the way forward, then you're wrong. basically, we use our reason just to confirm what we already believe. if that's true, then we all have

to get a little more humble as vainlys. and this is what has changed. swipes works because each of us challenge each other. as chris says, the scientific community does update where the religious right may not. >> chris, this one is aimed probably mostly at you. brow i'd like foe know the take of both of you on this. a few years ago, i proposed, it was on blowinging hilts. i'm very interested in evolution. i love biology. and i've always wondered whether nachl rail selection explained everything. i do not believe in god. i'm not interested in intel gent design. but i read a book that was saying that when it gets to how evolution crates large jumps and steps, as opposed to small things, it seems like there must be some other mechanism, we

don't know what it is. i found it fascinating. i had several new ones torn out of me. the liberal scientists were the ones. this is all the kind of behavior associated. i was trying to make sense. how do we fit in that even with evolution, the facts aren't as complete as we're told. >> really, that is intelligent design. if they get a little upset when you bring it up, immaterial's because it's a direct insult to their scientific expertise. >> sure. but even if you say i don't believe that it's intelligence

design. it's not about god. so we elite bring michael on and they're going to be extremely up set. >> the mistake he made was to talk to the devil. a principle in my book is follow the sacredness and around it, you'll find a ring of motivated. there are some quacks out there. so you basically committed treason by talking to him. >> i want to ask you a question. let's play this out in realtime. i have a rule on my show. we don't have climate denialists on my show. i only interested in a lot of exchange. we've had maggie gal egger on

and there was some people who didn't like that. if i was frankested to articulate why i draw the line there, i would say because a, it's extremely dangerous because it's undermining this scientific contentious that i think is necessary to us avoiding widespread commiseration. now, there's a certain degree to which that is antitheta cal, right? if you caricaturize it. but the thing i was talking about is in order for you to have this whole conversation, you're putting yourself at this kind of remove. people have their sacredness: >> so my whole life, i was a partisan lab rail. so i switched arch. i was still a part of the team. and in doing research for the

book, i realized conservatives they're right about a lot of things. so once i stepped up to the team and i'm liberal, sure u i'm part of something. i can think a lot more clearly. >> no, i'm being totally honest with you. the point is we're all embedded. you will will see where all the thinkers of sen truism and the fact of the matter is that is bonding. and team oriented. it's a matter of degree. if you're a congressman, you're filthing every day. if you're an academic who is less liberal than before, sure, you're not objective. but i am more objective than i was five years ago.

so i'll attack my own. these people are actually probably the kind of people who would naturally be liberal but they want a distinction. i'm not saying that's you. >> that may be the best you can find. >> well, they're valuable up to a point, but at some point -- >> hire's my question for you and for john as people. because then the question is, the big question, and the huge question that pertains to both the work that we do here ovinate whether we're going to solve global climate change and the possibility of moral revolution and transforfact which is something that is written about very well, is how can people change, right? what is the process? and, john, i think you're someone who has had real changes. particularly institutionally in the teams ump associated with. you were identified as a conservative.

>> you have to approach it indirectly. >> do the part about dal daldale dale carnagie. >> but what you can do, what you have to do is you have to try to foster relationships. so, as was said, you know, relationships open our minds and open our hearts. so for example, there's a group called living room organizations. they are friends who know each other. you get to know the dinner party and you bring people together. it's important to share food. if you do indirect methods, it's going to be by bringing people together in good circumstances where they can actually open their minds.

and alsace realizing that people are not convinced. actually, it's very useful today if you get passed the sleuthedly archaic language and you talk to people and try to figure out what's going on in their minds. imagine what it would be like to think as them. and then try to change what they may think by pointing out certain discrepancies and realizing that people don't change in front of you. >> i have a darned proposal. it may not work, but it would be nice. essentially, right now, we're getting a lot of conservative denial. if it was broadly admitted, then we could agree that we all have strengths and weaknesses and then we would just say simoom pop good at this, some people good at that. and then you may have a grouped

for cooperation. >> all right, i want to thank our guest for coming on today. it's a really fascinating book. is it wrong for the president to campaign on i'm killing osama bin laden? that's next. blarng blank.

now that i think of it, "what you want is a prettiedty good motto. >> this week, the obama administration released a new campaign ad.

well, not so southerly questioning whether mitt romney would have done the same thing. >> suppose the navy seals had gone in there and it hadn't been bin laden? suppose they'd been captured or killed. the downside would have been horrible. he took the harder and the more honorable path. and the one that produced, in my opinion, the best result. >> the ad coincided with the one-year anniversary of bin laden's death. senator john mccane called it a cheap political attack. he walked out back a bit and said it was inaprepropriate. romney made the inappropriate remark at a photo op alongside former new york mayor rudy ju a juliany.

democrats point out the double standard considering george w. bush went through great lengths. and point to the fine line. >> i think it's wrong to say that i did a high five because we have a picture of a dead body. but understanding the satisfaction, what it would mean for the children of folk who is died in the twin towers reflation. i think there was a deep-seeded satisfaction for the country at that moment. >> meanwhile, democrats and liberals seemed to be enjoying watching their own guy drop rhetorical bombs like this guy in december when obama was asked to respond to republican charges.

>> ask osama bin laden whether i engage in appeasement. or whoever is left out there. ask them about that. >> all right. i'm finding the discussion and debate over the politics of the politicalization of osama bin laden's death maddening. it's like a parfait of frustration. there's a whole bunch of different levels. the first level i guess i want to say is let's just dispose of the most obvious thing, which is whatever politicians, professional politicians talk about someone to politicize something, it's de facto preposterous. that's what it is. you politicize things. and spoofingly, there's a kind of gall it takes.

we were all around for the last decade. >> right, if you were at the 2004 republican convention, you would have thought that george w. bush had not only had him killed, but had him with his bare hands. >> right. here's a tweet from years of panic. he had an amazing tweet. he said if bush had killed bin laden, he would have the th you can see what that would have been like. [ laughter ] but it's completely true. it's the double standard that's maddening. and then, beneath that, there's this unease i have maybe because i'm a swishy liberal with sort of parading around in the vie

lens that is executed becomes an argument in one ease favor. and a sign of masculinity and toughness. >> it's just a brilliant move if we go back to the psychology of audiology. if you put them in experiments and put them where their eyes go, they're looking at threatening liberals first. so they have this sense that they are the defenders. and a lot of the electorate want that is leader. psychologically. so for obama to steal it with all the evidence to back it up because he did it, he walked the walk. >> but the other thing is that obama has never pretend today be the kind of -- to be a pacifist the way you are. >> i'm not a pacifist.

>> and so basically thrix is what he always said he was going to do it it's kind of where he said his focus was going to be. it would border on political malpractice to not make clear to the people that i did. i followed through on my promises. >> i actually share that sense of queasiness that you have. and a year ago, the people that were doing the celebration, i was rather disgusted in the same wayives discussed by the people celebrating 9/11. it's rhetorically necessary, given the idea that democrats are wimps. sometimes you have to play hardball in this political climate that we're talking about. and, in deed, from the beginning, he's the person who said i'm not against warrism,

just stupidism. >> i don't want to just end the war in iraq. i want to end the mind set. it's a whole broader conceptual landscape and historical landscape upon which the battedle of american politics takes place which is one where there's an asuction of the use of violence in maintaining that s supremacy or defending our interest. the fact that i can't articulate it as clearly as i'd like to, i feel uneased. but i have an intuition that there is a connection between all yvette things that i find objectionable about american objection force abroad and the political gains to be made from

the stealth that one has gotten. there's a rhetorical connection between those two things. how do we go about changing our playlet cal culture such that victories like the start treaty, which is a rouge victory at a political one, but that won't appear fe an ad. ever. no woven cares that we signed this treaty with the russians to continue removing nuclear stockpiles to the degree that we have a political culture that incentivizes this to push for our leaders to push themselves as strong and as agents of violence, don't we just keep continuing that trajectory? we'll get to your answers. wake up!

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president obama, bin laden is dead and general motors is alive. you have to ask yourself. had governor romney been president, could you have used the same slogan in reverse? tough stuff from the vice president. chris, you were just making a point -- in my poorly articulated case for my emotional visceral unease with some of the rhetorics surrounding your anniversary. you made a point about fear in the role that it plays in political psychology? >> sure. it's the most powerful emotion. if it's present, it throws out all the others. we all activate this and then we just want to shut down the borders until we're safe again. and even liberals, there was a conservative shift, the public support of the president. people want deceasive leader wos

don't mess around during that time period. aged part of the reason i think that was really insightful and profound, she said there's a way thatty can message the death as an end to the period of fear. as a cannellatauation of home and change and we can lilt them stop doing all of its work for us. and, no, really, now we can begin to have a conversation that's more. >> i think that they're doing that in a subtle way that coincided with new negotiations with drawing from afghanistan and winding down the war with iraq. and then there's the implicit way. you've seen 22 major al kwai da leaders killed. each time that happens, you don't see this explosion of triumphalism and demagoguery

that we saw. we've also seen terrorist threats that there will be a memo or an announcement about it. >> i think, also, in your argument, i think you underestimate the absolute supreme seduction of swagger and the fact that we, in a culture that loves to be able to say we won. period. it's different in a presidential year. when it comes to the reality of politics that we're in, that's just different. did you see the program? it was like a movie. and it appealed to so many elements around the basic american identity of supremacy and the idea that --

>> also i would say competence. that's also one of the things that are so powerful. >> no, it doesn't, but i think they're combined. jonelling me now is a former u.s. assistant secretary of state. good morning, how are you? >> hello, chris. a. >> what's your sense of the one-year anniversary of bin laden and the kind of discussion that's happened. >> well, this morning, terre's a great cartoon of elephants pointing out you stole my shirt. so at the political level, what republicans have always received as a political strength is not something that's going to be a significant part of their play book for 2012.

on the one hand, it's a big deal. we tend to personify our adversaries. and bin laden was the face and the voice of al-quida. this is a much different threat. bin laden was struggling with his affiliates. he was a ceo and trying to give them strategic level advice. but none the less, there are still groups in the arabian peninsula and in nigeria that pose significant threat. we're not done yet. >> the e-mails are a fascinating network that was published. i guess there were messages that were written by courier. there are letters. one of the things i found really interesting about those letters was him during the high water mark of zarkowie's mayhem and

massacer in iraq. and it was just pure evil. stop doing this. you're basically destroying the al quida brand. i thaugt that was such a bizarre way to think about bin laden. i want you to react to that right after we take a quick break. ttd#: 1-800-345-2550 ttd#: 1-800-345-2550 let's talk about market volatility. ttd#: 1-800-345-2550 in times like these, it can be tough to know which ttd#: 1-800-345-2550 way the wind is blowing. ttd#: 1-800-345-2550 at charles schwab, we're ready with objective insights about ttd#: 1-800-345-2550 the present market and economic conditions. ttd#: 1-800-345-2550 and can help turn those insights into

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...which helped students and teachers get better results in ap courses. together, they raised ap test scores 138%. just imagine our potential... ...if the other states joined them. let's raise our scores. let's invest in our teachers and inspire our students. let's solve this. we don't need to spike the football. i think given the graphic nature of these photos, it would create some national security risk. >> the president says he wouldn't spike the ball and he's doing that. obama said he's not going to spike the ball, but now he's spiking the ball. but clinton and gibbs are in the end sob doing the end sob dance.

>> bush landed on a [bleep] aircraft carrier. he spiked the football before the game even started. >> ron stuart doing a pretty good job on the spike the football meet. the substance here which has been oddly overlooked is what has this meant to the devise of alquida. how much had he been marginalized and isolated during his period of exile? and what does it mean about what al-quida is today? >> well, he was still very much in the center of the network. he has not necessarily had his hands on day-to-day operations. and then it's referred to the in the arabian peninsula.

a lot of the inspiration for those here in the united states that picked up the cause. ives intrigued and it goes back to who's inside the circle, who's outside the circle. bin laden was playing a little bit of control here. you know, you've perpetrated such violence. you've damaged the brand. he also said in the context of somalia qs because a group called fieldty to bin laden. we see this as the terrorism brain. >> let me make a clarification. i don't want to use euphemisms.

not only is he dead, but his 16-year-old son was also killed. >> and another american citizen. and i think that's a key pond that we can acknowledge the fact that bin laden being taken out is positive from a security standpoint. there are a lot of issues. did we in fact intend to take him alive? or did the seal team go in there with the intention of taking him out? i think the administration should be more forthcoming than it is and explain to the american people what was the legal rationale that made this permissible. >> there has been no explanation of particularly the death of his son who is, again, a 16-year-old american citizen.

>> mr. crowley, a question. why is it -- how is it that in 11 years, we have not had even some small chance attack from alquida on these shores? people say it's an exaggerated threat. all oaf this is just to keep america cowering and distract us from other things. how much of a threat really is there at this point from alquida and other places. >> we have to take one more quick break and then i'll let you answer that. last season was the gulf's best tourism season in years.

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al-quida and the reason they have not been able to carry off any attacks here in the u.s. in the last 11 years. what's your thought on that? >> i think, first of all, we're better. our security is better than it was. we've been lucky. you know, remember, went to times square, got his bomb lit up, it just didn't work. but i think it's also -- we've been lucky because bin laden, still, as these documents this week revealed, was still thinking about the spectacular. the danger is if terrorists go from the spectacular to the retail and just try to pull off any kind of event, you know, that can have a very, you know, significant effect on the

american people. if and when we're attacked again, that line is going to change again. it comes back to something that my friend richard keeps reiterate iing. your know, the best way to combat terrorism is to refuse to be recognized. we have to recognize that at some point in time, something is going to happen and we've got to keep that in context and perspective. >> that is a profound question to bring it back around. it's clear, i think, in the rear view mirror. people were afraid because they saw something horrible happen. and, chris, you're saying when people are under attack, they move to the right. i think the question is how do we -- i guess i want there to be some moment in which we can say.

let's stop being afraid. i wonder if some definitive break is actually not going to happen. >> i think it speaks, frankly, to america's national identity around hi pock rah psi. we'll also imply that we will have to stop terrorizing other people all over the world. refuse to acknowledge a reaction that causes their action and then demonize them in a way to fundamentally continue this supremacy that is a complete lie. oy this i three in the end, when fear has become this political tool that helps to make the swagger so seductive, the idea of victory so seductive and a political winning strategy, how do you -- you're talking about fundamentally changing your -- >> but not just politics, but

your entire kind of human nature and society of every culture that we no of. >> that's the thing. and that is the thing that i think i've taken away pr the bin laden era. and the social psychologicalness backs this up. people under fear, suddenly, their liberalism collapses. this is the key to what we want to engender. all of that falls in on itself. thanks so much for joining us. what did we know now that we didn't know last week? my answers after this. (female announcer) most life insurance companies look at you and just see a policy. at aviva, we do things differently. we're bringing humanity back to life insurance.

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so what do we know now that we dented know last week? we now know that scott brown very nearly killed off the affordable care act. is one of the laws direct beneficiaries. we know that brown's daughter is 23 years old and a professional singer which as you might imagine, doesn't generally come with health departmentcare. so she's oven her father's health insurance chlts we know the only reason she could be on her father's health insurance is because of a provision that allows children to stay on their parents' sheerness until 2026. we now know that what daniel bell called the cultural contradictions of capitalism are making themselves known in north carolina. and we know that at least one executive is worried that passage of the amendment will hurt the competitiveness.

amendment one has the potential for disastrous effect. we've got to attract that generation. we've got to vote no on amendment one. >> we know they've aligned oaths. allied with lgbt equality and in america, that politics can be decisive in the long term. thanks for the gallop survey, we know that retirement is slipping away from americans. we know that the expected retirement has risen from 60 to 67. we know that new york times columnist joan nacera who wrote an article about how wonderful and dem crate ie iic it was tha americans have invested in the 401(k)s and the stock market has now put off his own retirement, because he knows it is now a failed experiment. and we know that the daniel

cheng has been held in a cell who is a engineering student who said he was staying at a friend's apartment when d.e.a. raided the apartment and six friends. they say they saw 1,600 hits of ecstasy, and he was questioned for being released that day, because he was not charged with crime. then they forgot about him. he was trapped in a cell, and drank his own urine in an attempt to survive, and then he attempted suicide by breaking his own glasses and carved sorry, mom, in his arm. we know he is suing and would not want to be the unlucky lawyer who has to defend the government for the this wrongful suit. and after the newt gingrich dropped out, the romney campaign said we are proud to call newt

and callista our friends and look forward to work with them again in the months a and the years ahead. >> politics is weird and creepy and you know i know it lacks the loosest attachment to anything like reality. >> and we know that shepherd smith does have his moments. we want to find out that our guests know that they didn't go when the week began. professor mcwhorter? >> well, despite the discussion, i want to dispel that i'm in favor of intelligent -- >> you are getting ahead of the e-mails. >> yes, the progress of science and the book i'm in the middle of right now does not unfortunately happen to be chris's but i will get to it, or jonathan heights, but it is a book called "incomplete nature" by terrence deacon which is about how mind came from matter, and i'm interested in those particular questions of how we got here from there. >> and "incomplete nature." >> and the author?

>> terrence deacon. >> i love book recommendations at the end of the show. >> i know what spiking the football means. >> did you not know the source of the analogy? >> well, i knew it had something to do with sports. no, i asked on twitter yesterday and all was explained, but i think that one of the kind of most disturbing things that i now know comes via a column that mickeroff wrote this week about the terrible chemicals that we are absorbing through plastics and the like and the thing that is most harrowing is the presence of bpa which is a chemical that is banned in much of europe, but it is present and omnipresent in american life and it seems to be especially toxic for in fetal exposure and so now one of the things that we now know is that a woman who is trying the protect her wanted fetus gets little help from the

politics. >> good point. ester? >> you should know the name howard morgan. howard morgan is a former police officer in chicago who was shot 28 times off duty by former white police officers. he survived. he survived to find himself charged with attempted first degree murder. he was charged with aggravated discharge of a weapon. he went to trial and acquitted of the weapon charges and the jury deadlocked on the attempted murder charge. and there was a second trial, and now he is convicted. he is now convicted of shooting the four police officers who shot him 28 times. you should check it out online, because it will defy common sense. and also, the justice of untreated trauma around america's and global black histories and the way that we

motion allize our identity and institutionalize that emotionality in the legislation and politics. >> chris moody? >> well, the science of ideology that we have been talking about today precede ss a pace and the scientific literature is showing more and more research. there is a new study this week done by the researchers in australia looking at the liberal and the conservative politicians, and the photographs of them. it turns out if you show the left side of the face, it is more emotion and the left side doesn't and a lot of research about that. so turns out that conservative politicians in the uk and canada and the australia and the united states all showed the left side of the face in the portraits than the liberal politicians d did. so the liberal politicians were instinctively connecting with the voters. >> okay. i will use this. set up the shot like this. >> think about that. >> my thanks to john mcwhorter, michelle goldberg, author of the

"means of reproduction, s eshex, power and the rest of the world," and ester armah, and chris, thank you as well, and thank you for joining us. we will have a blockbuster show tomorrow. we will have george w. bush's former writer david frum, and so much more. m melissa harris-perry, what is coming up next? >> the picture of the teardrop is epic. could you make it into a poster? that was great. and also, a lot of conversation this week about president obama and sort of his angst about the lessons, and i was so happy to learn that he had a copy of the "inv "invisible man" that is apparently as dog eared as mine, and so we will talk a little bit about that and we will go the north carolina and have a conservation about the

anti-marriage amendment one which is up for vote tuesday and talk about the democratic party's core constituents and we will talk about waltzing before a blind audience, but you have to tune in to find out what that means. >> blind audience and "invisible man." thank you, mrp. we will see you tomorrow morning at 8:00 and thanks for getting "up." i'm al ways looking out for i'm al small ways to be more healthy. like splenda® essentials™ no calorie sweeteners. this bowl of strawberries is loaded with vitamin c. and now, b vitamins to boot. coffee doesn't have fiber. unless you want it to. splenda® essentials™ are the first and only line of sweeteners with a small boost of fiber, or antioxidants, or b vitamins in every packet. mmm. same great taste with an added "way to go, me" feeling. splenda® essentials™. get more out of what you put in.

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